LoveForWisdom

Reaching out, sharing the love of the wisdom of the Lord with the world.

Wednesday, March 14, 2007

E-mail appears on Creation on the Web, proving Creation!

It appears that my name is leaking out there on the web a little bit. The following can be found at: http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/4947/. Enjoy the correspondence :).

More or less information? / Has a recent experiment proved creation?

Photo by José A. Warletta, from www.sxc.hu
One of the most important creationist arguments concerns information. Understanding this issue deflects many anti-creationist equivocations, calling any change ‘evolution’. That is, no creationist denies that things change, and even speciate, but nearly all the cited changes do not involve the increase in information content required for microbes-to-man evolution, but go in the wrong direction. See one illustration: How information is lost when creatures adapt to their environment.
This week’s feedback comes from Casey P who picked up from a website a vexatious question about how to define information. The evolutionist who first posed that question erred by presupposing a simplistic definition, while Andrew Lamb’s reply shows that there are more levels of information needed to understand its role in biology.
The second feedback addresses questions on a recent article about a research scientist whose work supposedly proves creation. However, Jonathan Sarfati had replied to a similar query in 1999 about the same phenomenon, and it is updated below.
How do we define information in biology?
Photo by Dacho Dachovic, from www.sxc.hu
I’m curious to know perhaps you could fill me in on this. Which one has the most information, and what exactly are these two sequences?
Sequence 1: cag tgt ctt ggg ttc tcg cct gac tac
gag acg cgt ttg tct tta cag gtc ctc ggc cag cac
ctt aga caa gca ccc ggg acg cac ctt tca gtg ggc
act cat aat ggc gga gta cca agg agg cac ggt cca
ttg ttt tcg ggc cgg cat tgc tca tct ctt gag att
tcc ata ctt
Sequence 2: tgg agt tct aag aca gta caa ctc tgc
gac cgt gct ggg gta gcc act tct ggc cta atc tac
gtt aca gaa aat ttg agg ttg cgc ggt gtc ctc gtt
agg cac aca cgg gtg gaa tgg ggg tct ctt acc aaa
ggg ctg ccg tat cag gta cga cgt agg tat tgc cgt
gat aga ctg
Thanks for your help here. God bless.
Casey P
Dear Mr P
Thank you for your email of 17 January, submitted via our website.
In response to creationist arguments about genetic information, some evolutionists disingenuously object that since there is no one measure of information content applicable to all situations, therefore genetic information doesn’t exist! But even hardened atheists like the eugenicist Richard Dawkins recognize that DNA contains information. In fact there is a burgeoning new field of science called bio-informatics, which is all about genetic information.
With respect to the two sequences you presented, one would need to know their functions before it would be possible to consider making a comparison about which sequence carried more information. If their functions (assuming they were not just gobbledygook) were dissimilar, then it would be fairly meaningless to attempt a comparison of information content. For example if one was a genetic sequence coding for an enzyme, and the other a genetic sequence coding for a structural protein, then to ask which has the most information would be as meaningless as asking, say, ‘which has more information—60 grams worth of apple or 60 grams worth of orange’.
If the meaning/function is similar, then an information-content comparison may be possible. Consider the following two sequences:
She has a yellow vehicle.She has a yellow car.
Both are English sentences. The first is 25 characters long, and the second is 21 characters long. The first sentence has more characters, but the second sentence has more information, because it is more specific (cars being just one of scores of different types of vehicle), and specificity is one measure of information content. Specificity only relates to the purpose of the information, not to the way it is expressed or the size of the message when it is expressed in some particular way/language.
There are five levels of information content (after Information, Science and Biology by Dr Werner Gitt, information scientist):
statistics (symbols and their frequencies)
syntax (patterns of arrangement of symbols)
semantics (meaning)
pragmatics (function/result/outcome)
apobetics (purpose/plan/design)
Specificity relates to the pragmatics or apobetics level.
Gitt’s Theorem 9 states that ‘Only that which contains semantics is information’. Many evolutionists err by restricting information to the statistical level, or to ‘Shannon information’.
Gitt’s Theorem 9 states that ‘Only that which contains semantics is information’. This is a crucial point. Many evolutionists err by restricting information measurement to the statistical level, or to ‘Shannon information’. So-called ‘Shannon information’ is not a measure of information per se, but merely a measure of the minimum number of characters/units needed to represent a sequence, regardless of whether the sequence is meaningful or not. Gobbledygook can have more ‘Shannon information’ than a sentence in English.
So, if the two sequences you presented were composed randomly, then it is highly unlikely that either contains any information. However, for argument’s sake, I will assume that they may be meaningful, and compare them.
The two sequences both contain the same amount of statistical information, 240 characters worth, when represented in text.
Both sequences appear the same at the syntactical level, i.e. both consist of 60 spaced triplets composed of the symbols c, a, t, and g.
At the semantic level, I recognize that these letter triplets are the same as ones used to represent triplets of DNA bases that code for particular amino acids. Since all 64 possible triplets have a meaning in the DNA code, and since neither sequence contains any of the three ‘stop codes’ (taa, tga, tag), it follows that both sequences could be regarded as having the same amount of information at the semantic level, since, if processed by the appropriate genetic machinery, both sequences could probably produce a segment of protein 60 amino acids in length.
However, when it comes to the pragmatics level, as far as I can determine (being unable to locate these sequences in a gene library such as NCBI’s Entrez Nucleotides) both sequences apparently carry the same amount of meaningful information—zilch.
At the apobetics level, I have no idea what outcomes would result from processing of the two sequences. Conceivably, at one extreme, they could result in production of an enzyme that kills the cell, or even a toxin that kills the organism to which the cell belongs. At the other extreme, they could (for all I know) prevent aging, thus extending the lifespan—I have no idea. Indeed, one of the most intractable problems in molecular biology is computing the final protein configuration from an amino acid sequence (see a current project).
Note also that each creature has its own unique set of cellular machinery, so the outcomes that result from the reading of these genetic sequences could be very different depending on which organism’s genetic machinery reads them. For example the genetic sequence found in the HIV virus is harmless when read by the cellular machinery in ape’s cells, but ultimately lethal when read by human cellular machinery—very different outcomes at the apobetics level from the same genetic sequence. Also, there are some organisms with slightly different genetic codes, so the same semantic information would be read differently resulting in different pragmatic and apobetic information.
The final protein configuration that results from a particular DNA sequence is mainly determined by cellular machines of a type called chaperonins, which influence protein folding. Without chaperonins, an important protein might mis-fold into a deadly prion. This is the likely cause of the fatal brain conditions Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease and bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE) aka mad cow disease (see also Did God create life? Ask a protein, and Discoveries that undermine the one gene → one protein idea).
I hope this helps. We have many articles on our website on the issue of information in living organisms. They can be found listed under the topic ‘Information Theory’ in the Frequently Asked Questions index on this website.
Yours sincerely
Andrew LambInformation Officer
Related articles

I am grateful and honored to be mentioned at CMI's website here. Its just a question yes, but...its way cool to receive this recognition, and I thank all at CMI's website.

God bless,

Casey Powell

Tuesday, March 13, 2007

Why its Undeniable that Jesus Christ in fact did rise from the dead!

EVIDENCE FOR THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST
A Challenge for Skeptics

A reasonable challenge to the skeptic is this: If it can be proved that Jesus really rose from the dead, will you believe in him? For if he really rose, that validates his claim to be divine and not merely human, for resurrection from death is beyond human power; and his divinity validates the truth of everything else he said, for God cannot lie.
The Strategy of the Argument for the Resurrection: Five Possible Theories
We believe Christ's resurrection can be proved with at least as much certainty as any universally believed and well-documented event in ancient history. To prove this, we do not need to presuppose anything controversial (e.g. that miracles happen). But the skeptic must also not presuppose anything (e.g. that they do not). We do not need to presuppose that the New Testament is infallible, or divinely inspired or even true. We do not need to presuppose that there really was an empty tomb or post-resurrection appearances, as recorded. We need to presuppose only two things, both of which are hard data, empirical data, which no one denies:
I. The existence of the New Testament texts as we have them.
II. The existence (but not necessarily the truth) of the Christian religion as we find it today.
The question is this: Which theory about what really happened in Jerusalem on that first Easter Sunday can account for the data? There are five possible theories: Christianity, hallucination, myth, conspiracy and swoon.
Jesus died --- Jesus rose ---------------------------------- (1) Christianity
Jesus didn't rise --- the apostles were deceived ----- (2) Hallucination
the apostles were myth-makers ------------------------- (3) Myth
the apostles were deceivers ------------------------------ (4) Conspiracy
Jesus didn't die ---------------------------------------------- (5) Swoon
Theories 2 and 4 constitute a dilemma: if Jesus didn't rise, then the apostles, who taught that he did, were either deceived (if they thought he did) or deceivers (if they knew he didn't). The Modernists could not escape this dilemma until they came up with a middle category, myth. It is the most popular alternative today.
Thus either (1) the resurrection really happened, (2) the apostles were deceived by a hallucination, (3) the apostles created a myth, not meaning it literally, (4) the apostles were deceivers who conspired to foist on the world the most famous and successful lie in history, or (5) Jesus only swooned and was resuscitated, not resurrected. All five theories are logically possible, and therefore must be fairly investigated -- even (1) ! They are also the only possibilities, unless we include really far-out ideas that responsible historians have never taken seriously, such as that Jesus was really a Martian who came in a flying saucer. Or that he never even existed; that the whole story was the world's greatest fantasy novel, written by some simple fisherman; that he was a literary character whom everyone in history mistook for a real person, including all Christians and their enemies, until some scholar many centuries later got the real scoop from sources unnamed.
If we can refute all other theories (2-5), we will have proved the truth of the resurrection (1). The form of the argument here is similar to that of most of the arguments for the existence of God. Neither God nor the resurrection are directly observable, but from data that are directly observable we can argue that the only possible adequate explanation of this data is the Christian one.
We shall take the four non-believing theories in the following order: from the simplest, least popular and most easily refuted to the most confusing, most popular and most complexly refuted: first swoon, then conspiracy, then hallucination and finally myth.
Refutation of the Swoon Theory: Nine Arguments
Nine pieces of evidence refute the swoon theory:
(1) Jesus could not have survived crucifixion. Roman procedures were very careful to eliminate that possibility. Roman law even laid the death penalty on any soldier who let a capital prisoner escape in any way, including bungling a crucifixion. It was never done.
(2) The fact that the Roman soldier did not break Jesus' legs, as he did to the other two crucified criminals (Jn 19:31-33), means that the soldier was sure Jesus was dead. Breaking the legs hastened the death so that the corpse could be taken down before the sabbath (v. 31).
(3) John, an eyewitness, certified that he saw blood and water come from Jesus' pierced heart (Jn 19:34-35). This shows that Jesus' lungs had collapsed and he had died of asphyxiation. Any medical expert can vouch for this.
(4) The body was totally encased in winding sheets and entombed (Jn 19:38-42).
(5) The post-resurrection appearances convinced the disciples, even "doubting Thomas," that Jesus was gloriously alive (Jn 20:19-29). It is psychologically impossible for the disciples to have been so transformed and confident if Jesus had merely struggled out of a swoon, badly in need of a doctor. A half-dead, staggering sick man who has just had a narrow escape is not worshiped fearlessly as divine lord and conquerer of death.
(6) How were the Roman guards at the tomb overpowered by a swooning corpse? Or by unarmed disciples? And if the disciples did it, they knowingly lied when they wrote the Gospels, and we are into the conspiracy theory, which we will refute shortly.
(7) How could a swooning half-dead man have moved the great stone at the door of the tomb? Who moved the stone if not an angel? No one has ever answered that question. Neither the Jews nor the Romans would move it, for it was in both their interests to keep the tomb sealed, the Jews had the stone put there in the first place, and the Roman guards would be killed if they let the body "escape."
The story the Jewish authorities spread, that the guards fell asleep and the disciples stole the body (Mt 28:11-15), is unbelievable. Roman guards would not fall asleep on a job like that; if they did, they would lose their lives. And even if they did fall asleep, the crowd and the effort and the noise it would have taken to move an enormous boulder would have wakened them. Furthermore, we are again into the conspiracy theory, with all its unanswerable difficulties (see next section).
(8) If Jesus awoke from a swoon, where did he go? Think this through: you have a living body to deal with now, not a dead one. Why did it disappear? There is absolutely no data, not even any false, fantastic, imagined data, about Jesus' life after his crucifixion, in any sources, friend or foe, at any time, early or late. A man like that, with a past like that, would have left traces.
(9) Most simply, the swoon theory necessarily turns into the conspiracy theory or the hallucination theory, for the disciples testified that Jesus did not swoon but really died and really rose.
It may seem that these nine arguments have violated our initial principle about not presupposing the truth of the Gospel texts, since we have argued from data in the texts. But the swoon theory does not challenge the truths in the texts which we refer to as data; it uses them and explains them (by swoon rather than resurrection). Thus we use them too. We argue from our opponents' own premises.
Refutation of the Conspiracy Theory: Seven Arguments
Why couldn't the disciples have made up the whole story?
(1) Blaise Pascal gives a simple, psychologically sound proof for why this is unthinkable:
"The apostles were either deceived or deceivers. Either supposition is difficult, for it is not possible to imagine that a man has risen from the dead. While Jesus was with them, he could sustain them; but afterwards, if he did not appear to them, who did make them act? The hypothesis that the Apostles were knaves is quite absurd. Follow it out to the end, and imagine these twelve men meeting after Jesus' death and conspiring to say that he has risen from the dead. This means attacking all the powers that be. The human heart is singularly susceptible to fickleness, to change, to promises, to bribery. One of them had only to deny his story under these inducements, or still more because of possible imprisonment, tortures and death, and they would all have been lost. Follow that out." (Pascal, Pensees 322, 310)
The "cruncher" in this argument is the historical fact that no one, weak or strong, saint or sinner, Christian or heretic, ever confessed, freely or under pressure, bribe or even torture, that the whole story of the resurrection was a fake a lie, a deliberate deception. Even when people broke under torture, denied Christ and worshiped Caesar, they never let that cat out of the bag, never revealed that the resurrection was their conspiracy. For that cat was never in that bag. No Christians believed the resurrection was a conspiracy; if they had, they wouldn't have become Christians.
(2) If they made up the story, they were the most creative, clever, intelligent fantasists in history, far surpassing Shakespeare, or Dante or Tolkien. Fisherman's "fish stories" are never that elaborate, that convincing, that life-changing, and that enduring.
(3) The disciples' character argues strongly against such a conspiracy on the part of all of them, with no dissenters. They were simple, honest, common peasants, not cunning, conniving liars. They weren't even lawyers! Their sincerity is proved by their words and deeds. They preached a resurrected Christ and they lived a resurrected Christ. They willingly died for their "conspiracy." Nothing proves sincerity like martyrdom. They change in their lives from fear to faith, despair to confidence, confusion to certitude, runaway cowardice to steadfast boldness under threat and persecution, not only proves their sincerity but testifies to some powerful cause of it. Can a lie cause such a transformation? Are truth and goodness such enemies that the greatest good in history -- sanctity -- has come from the greatest lie?
Use your imagination and sense of perspective here. Imagine twelve poor, fearful, stupid (read the Gospels!) peasants changing the hard-nosed Roman world with a lie. And not an easily digested, attractive lie either. St. Thomas Aquinas says:
"In the midst of the tyranny of the persecutors, an innumerable throng of people, both simple and learned, flocked to the Christian faith. In this faith there are truths proclaimed that surpass every human intellect; the pleasures of the flesh are curbed; it is taught that the things of the world should be spurned. Now, for the minds of mortal men to assent to these things is the greatest of miracles....This wonderful conversion of the world to the Christian faith is the clearest witness....For it would be truly more wonderful than all signs if the world had been led by simply and humble men to believe such lofty truths, to accomplish such difficult actions, and to have such high hopes." (Summa Contra Gentiles, I, 6)
(4) There could be no possible motive for such a lie. Lies are always told for some selfish advantage. What advantage did the "conspirators" derive from their "lie" ? They were hated, scorned, persecuted, excommunicated, imprisoned, tortured, exiled, crucified, boiled alive, roasted, beheaded, disemboweled and fed to lions -- hardly a catalog of perks!
(5) If the resurrection was a lie, the Jews would have produced the corpse and nipped this feared superstition in the bud. All they had to do was go to the tomb and get it. The Roman soldiers and their leaders were on their side, not the Christians'. And if the Jews couldn't get the body because the disciples stole it, how did they do that? The arguments against the swoon theory hold here too: unarmed peasants could not have overpowered Roman soldiers or rolled away a great stone while they slept on duty.
(6) The disciples could not have gotten away with proclaiming the resurrection in Jerusalem -- same time, same place, full of eyewitnesses -- if it had been a lie. William Lane Craig says,
"The Gospels were written in such a temporal and geographical proximity to the events they record that it would have been almost impossible to fabricate events....The fact that the disciples were able to proclaim the resurrection in Jerusalem in the face of their enemies a few weeks after the crucifixion shows that what they proclaimed was true, for they could never have proclaimed the resurrection (and been believed) under such circumstances had it not occurred." (Knowing the Truth About the Resurrection, chapter 6)
(7) If there had been a conspiracy, it would certainly have been unearthed by the disciples' adversaries, who had both the interest and the power to expose any fraud. Common experience shows that such intrigues are inevitably exposed (Craig, ibid).
In conclusion, if the resurrection was a concocted, conspired lie, it violates all known historical and psychological laws of lying. It is, then, as unscientific, as unrepeatable, unique and untestable as the resurrection itself. But unlike the resurrection, it is also contradicted by things we do know (the above points).
Refutation of the Hallucination Theory: Thirteen Arguments
If you thought you saw a dead man walking and talking, wouldn't you think it more likely that you were hallucinating than that you were seeing correctly? Why then not think the same thing about Christ's resurrection?
(1) There were too many witnesses. Hallucinations are private, individual, subjective. Christ appeared to Mary Magdalene, to the disciples minus Thomas, to the disciples including Thomas, to the two disciples at Emmaus, to the fisherman on the shore, to James (his "brother" or cousin), and even to five hundred people at once (1 Cor 15:3-8). Even three different witnesses are enough for a kind of psychological trigonometry; over five hundred is about as public as you can wish. And Paul says in this passage (v. 6) that most of the five hundred are still alive, inviting any reader to check the truth of the story by questioning the eyewitnesses -- he could never have done this and gotten away with it, given the power, resources and numbers of his enemies, if it were not true.
(2) The witnesses were qualified. They were simple, honest, moral people who had firsthand knowledge of the facts.
(3) The five hundred saw Christ together, at the same time and place. This is even more remarkable than five hundred private "hallucinations" at different times and places of the same Jesus. Five hundred separate Elvis sightings may be dismissed, but if five hundred simple fishermen in Maine saw, touched and talked with him at once, in the same town, that would be a different matter. (The only other dead person we know of who is reported to have appeared to hundreds of qualified and skeptical eyewitnesses at once is Mary the mother of Jesus [at Fatima, to 70,000]. And that was not a claim of physical resurrection but of a vision.)
(4) Hallucinations usually last a few seconds or minutes; rarely hours. This one hung around for forty days (Acts 1:3).
(5) Hallucinations usually happen only once, except to the insane. This one returned many times, to ordinary people (Jn 20:19-21:14; Acts 1:3).
(6) Hallucinations come from within, from what we already know, at least unconsciously. This one said and did surprising and unexpected things (Acts 1:4,9) -- like a real person and unlike a dream.
(7) Not only did the disciples not expect this, they didn't even believe it at first -- neither Peter, nor the women, nor Thomas, nor the eleven. They thought he was a ghost; he had to eat something to prove he was not (Lk 24:36-43).
(8) Hallucinations do not eat. The resurrected Christ did, on at least two occasions (Lk 24:42-43; Jn 21:1-14).
(9) The disciples touched him (Mt 28:9; Lk 24:39; Jn 20:27).
(10) They also spoke with him, and he spoke back. Figments of your imagination do not hold profound, extended conversations with you, unless you have the kind of mental disorder that isolates you. But this "hallucination" conversed with at least eleven people at once, for forty days (Acts 1:3).
(11) The apostles could not have believed in the "hallucination" if Jesus' corpse had still been in the tomb. This is very simple and telling point; for if it was a hallucination, where was the corpse? They would have checked for it; if it was there, they could not have believed.
(12) If the apostles had hallucinated and then spread their hallucinogenic story, the Jews would have stopped it by producing the body -- unless the disciples had stolen it, in which case we are back with the conspiracy theory and all its difficulties.
(13) A hallucination would explain only the post-resurrection appearances; it would not explain the empty tomb, the rolled-away stone, or the inability to produce the corpse. No theory can explain all these data except a real resurrection. C.S. Lewis says,
"Any theory of hallucination breaks down on the fact (and if it is invention [rather than fact], it is the oddest invention that ever entered the mind of man) that on three separate occasions this hallucination was not immediately recognized as Jesus (Lk 24:13-31; Jn 20:15; 21:4). Even granting that God sent a holy hallucination to teach truths already widely believed without it, and far more easily taught by other methods, and certain to be completely obscured by this, might we not at least hope that he would get the face of the hallucination right? Is he who made all faces such a bungler that he cannot even work up a recognizable likeness of the Man who was himself?" (Miracles, chapter 16)
Some of these arguments are as old as the Church Fathers. Most go back to the eighteenth century, especially William Paley. How do unbelievers try to answer them? Today, few even try to meet these arguments, although occasionally someone tries to refurbish one of the three theories of swoon, conspiracy or hallucination (e.g. Schonfield's conspiratorial The Passover Plot). But the counter-attack today most often takes one of the two following forms.
I. Some dismiss the resurrection simply because it is miraculous, thus throwing the whole issue back to whether miracles are possible. They argue, as Hume did, that any other explanation is always more probable than a miracle. For a refutation of these arguments, see our chapter on miracles (chapter 5).
II. The other form of counter-attack, by far the most popular, is to try to escape the traditional dilemma of "deceivers" (conspirators) or "deceived" (hallucinators) by interpreting the Gospels as myth -- neither literally true nor literally false, but spiritually or symbolically true. This is the standard line of liberal theology departments in colleges, universities and seminaries throughout the Western world today.
Refutation of the Myth Theory: Six Arguments
(1) The style of the Gospels is radically and clearly different from the style of all the myths. Any literary scholar who knows and appreciates myths can verify this. There are no overblown, spectacular, childishly exaggerated events. Nothing is arbitrary. Everything fits in. Everything is meaningful. The hand of a master is at work here.
Psychological depth is at a maximum. In myth it is at a minimum. In myth, such spectacular external events happen that it would be distracting to add much internal depth of character. That is why it is ordinary people like Alice who are the protagonists of extra-ordinary adventures like Wonderland. That character depth and development of everyone in the Gospels -- especially, of course, Jesus himself -- is remarkable. It is also done with an incredible economy of words. Myths are verbose; the Gospels are laconic (concise).
There are also telltale marks of eyewitness description, like the little detail of Jesus writing in the sand when asked whether to stone the adulteress or not (Jn 8:6). No one knows why this is put in; nothing comes of it. The only explanation is that the writer saw it. If this detail and others like it throughout all four Gospels were invented, then a first-century tax collector (Matthew), a "young man" (Mark), a doctor (Luke), and a fisherman (John) all independently invented the new genre of realistic fantasy nineteen centuries before it was reinvented in the twentieth.
The stylistic point is argued so well by C.S. Lewis in "Modern Theology and Biblical Criticism" (in Christian Reflections and also in Fern-Seed and Elephants) that we strongly refer the reader to it as the best comprehensive anti-demythologizing essay we have seen.
Let us be even more specific. Let us compare the Gospels with two particular mythic writings from around that time to see for ourselves the stylistic differences. The first is the so-called Gospel of Peter, a forgery from around A.D. 125 which John Dominic Crossan (of the "Jesus Seminar"), a current media darling among the doubters, insists is earlier than the four Gospels. As William Lane Craig puts it:
"In this account, the tomb is not only surrounded by Roman guards but also by all the Jewish Pharisees and elders as well as a great multitude from all the surrounding countryside who have come to watch the resurrection. Suddenly in the night there rings out a loud voice in heaven, and two men descend from heaven to the tomb. The stone over the door rolls back by itself, and they go into the tomb. The three men come out of the tomb, two of them holding up the third man. The heads of the two men reach up into the clouds, but the head of the third man reaches beyond the clouds. Then a cross comes out of the tomb, and a voice from heaven asks, 'Have you preached to them that sleep?' And the cross answers, 'Yes.'" (Apologetics, p. 189)
Here is a second comparison, from Richard Purtill:
"It may be worthwhile to take a quick look, for purposes of comparison at the closest thing we have around the time of the Gospels to an attempt at a realistic fantasy. This is the story of Apollonius of Tyana, written about A.D. 250 by Flavius Philostratus....There is some evidence that a neo-Pythagorean sage named Apollonius may really have lived, and thus Philostratus' work is a real example of what have thought the Gospels to be: a fictionalized account of the life of a real sage and teacher, introducing miraculous elements to build up the prestige of the central figure. It thus gives us a good look at what a real example of a fictionalized biography would look like, written at a time and place not too far removed from those in which the Gospels were written.
"The first thing we notice is the fairy-tale atmosphere. There is a rather nice little vampire story, which inspired a minor poem by Keats entitled Lamia. There are animal stories about, for instance, snakes in India big enough to drag off and eat an elephant. The sage wanders from country to country and wherever he goes he is likely to be entertained by the king or emperor, who holds long conversations with him and sends him on his way with camels and precious stones.
"Here is a typical passage about healing miracles: 'A woman who had had seven miscarriages was cured through the prayers of her husband, as follows. The Wise Man told the husband, when his wife was in labor, to bring a live rabbit under his cloak to the place where she was, walk around her and immediately release the rabbit; for she would lose her womb as well as her baby if the rabbit was not immediately driven away.' [Bk 3, sec 39]
"The point is that this is what you get when the imagination goes to work. Once the boundaries of fact are crossed we wander into fairyland. And very nice too, for amusement or recreation. But the Gospels are set firmly in the real Palestine of the first century, and the little details are not picturesque inventions but the real details that only an eyewitness or a skilled realistic novelist can give." (Thinking About Religion, p. 75-76)
(2) A second problem is that there was not enough time for myth to develop. The original demythologizers pinned their case onto a late second-century date for the writing of the Gospels; several generations have to pass before the added mythological elements can be mistakenly believed to be facts. Eyewitnesses would be around before that to discredit the new, mythic versions. We know of other cases where myths and legends of miracles developed around a religious founder -- for example, Buddha, Lao-tzu and Muhammad. In each case, many generations passed before the myth surfaced.
The dates for the writing of the Gospels have been pushed back by every empirical manuscript discovery; only abstract hypothesizing pushes the date forward. Almost no knowledgeable scholar today holds what Bultmann said it was necessary to hold in order to believe the myth theory, namely, that there is no first-century textual evidence that Christianity began with a divine and resurrected Christ, not a human and dead one.
Some scholars still dispute the first-century date for the Gospels, especially John's. But no one disputes that Paul's letters were written within the lifetime of eyewitnesses to Christ. So let us argue from Paul's letters. Either these letters contain myth or they do not. If so, there is lacking the several generations necessary to build up a commonly believed myth. There is not even one generation. If these letters are not myth, then the Gospels are not either, for Paul affirms all the main claims of the Gospels. Julius Muller put the anti-myth argument this way:
"One cannot imagine how such a series of legends could arise in an historical age, obtain universal respect, and supplant the historical recollection of the true character [Jesus]....if eyewitnesses were still at hand who could be questioned respecting the truth of the recorded marvels. Hence, legendary fiction, as it likes not the clear present time but prefers the mysterious gloom of gray antiquity, is wont to seek a remoteness of age, along with that of space, and to remove its boldest and most rare and wonderful creations into a very remote and unknown land." (The Theory of Myths in Its Application to the Gospel History Examined and Confuted [London, 1844], p. 26)
Muller challenged his nineteenth-century contemporaries to produce a single example anywhere in history of a great myth or legend arising around a historical figure and being generally believed within thirty years after that figure's death. No one has ever answered him.
(3) The myth theory has two layers. The first layer is the historical Jesus, who was not divine, did not claim divinity, performed no miracles, and did not rise from the dead. The second, later, mythologized layer is the Gospels as we have them, with a Jesus who claimed to be divine, performed miracles and rose from the dead. The problem with this theory is simply that there is not the slightest bit of any real evidence whatever for the existence of any such first layer. The two-layer cake theory has the first layer made entirely of air -- and hot air at that.
St. Augustine refutes the two-layer theory with his usual condensed power and simplicity:
"The speech of one Elpidius, who had spoken and disputed face to face against the Manichees, had already begun to affect me at Carthage, when he produced arguments from Scripture which were not easy to answer. And the answer they [the Manichees, who claimed to be the true Christians] gave seemed to me feeble -- indeed they preferred not to give it in public but only among ourselves in private -- the answer being that the Scriptures of the New Testament had been corrupted by some persons unknown...yet the Manicheans made no effort to produce uncorrupted copies." (Confessions, V, 11, Sheed translation)
Note the sarcasm in the last sentence. It still applies today. William Lane Craig summarizes the evidence -- the lack of evidence:
"The Gospels are a miraculous story, and we have no other story handed down to us than that contained in the Gospels....The letters of Barnabas and Clement refer to Jesus' miracles and resurrection. Polycarp mentions the resurrection of Christ, and Irenaeus relates that he had heard Polycarp tell of Jesus' miracles. Ignatius speaks of the resurrection. Puadratus reports that persons were still living who had been healed by Jesus. Justin Martyr mentions the miracles of Christ. No relic of a non-miraculous story exists. That the original story should be lost and replaced by another goes beyond any known example of corruption of even oral tradition, not to speak of the experience of written transmissions. These facts show that the story in the Gospels was in substance the same story that Christians had at the beginning. This means...that the resurrection of Jesus was always a part of the story." (Apologetics, chapter 6)
(4) A little detail, seldom noticed, is significant in distinguishing the Gospels from myth: the first witnesses of the resurrection were women. In first-century Judaism, women had low social status and no legal right to serve as witnesses. If the empty tomb were an invented legend, its inventors surely would not have had it discovered by women, whose testimony was considered worthless. If, on the other hand, the writers were simply reporting what they saw, they would have to tell the truth, however socially and legally inconvenient.
(5) The New Testament could not be myth misinterpreted and confused with fact because it specifically distinguishes the two and repudiates the mythic interpretation (2 Peter 1:16). Since it explicitly says it is not myth, if it is myth it is a deliberate lie rather than myth. The dilemma still stands. It is either truth or lie, whether deliberate (conspiracy) or non-deliberate (hallucination). There is no escape from the horns of this dilemma. Once a child asks whether Santa Claus is real, your yes becomes a lie, not myth, if he is not literally real. Once the New Testament distinguishes myth from fact, it becomes a lie if the resurrection is not fact.
(6) William Lane Craig has summarized the traditional textual arguments with such clarity, condensation and power that we quote him here at length. The following arguments (rearranged and outlined from Knowing the Truth About the Resurrection) prove two things: first, that the Gospels were written by the disciples, not later myth-makers, and second, that the Gospels we have today are essentially the same as the originals.
(A) Proof that the Gospels were written by eyewitnesses:
(1) Internal evidence, from the Gospels themselves:
(a) The style of writing in the Gospels is simple and alive, what we would expect from their traditionally accepted authors.
(b) Moreover, since Luke was written before Acts, and since Acts was written prior to the death of Paul, Luke must have an early date, which speaks for its authenticity.
(c) The Gospels also show an intimate knowledge of Jerusalem prior to its destruction in A.D. 70. The Gospels are full of proper names, dates, cultural details, historical events, and customs and opinions of that time.
(d) Jesus' prophecies of that event (the destruction of Jerusalem) must have been written prior to Jerusalem's fall, for otherwise the church would have separated out the apocalyptic element in the prophecies, which makes them appear to concern the end of the world. Since the end of the world did not come about when Jerusalem was destroyed, the so-called prophecies of its destruction that were really written after the city was destroyed would not have made that event appear so closely connected with the end of the world. Hence, the Gospels must have been written prior to A.D. 70.
(e) The stories of Jesus' human weaknesses and of the disciples' faults also bespeak the Gospels' accuracy.
(f) Furthermore, it would have been impossible for forgers to put together so consistent a narrative as that which we find in the Gospels. The Gospels do not try to suppress apparent discrepancies, which indicates their originality (written by eyewitnesses). There is no attempt at harmonization between the Gospels, such as we might expect from forgers.
(g) The Gospels do not contain anachronisms; the authors appear to have been first-century Jews who were witnesses of the events.
We may conclude that there is no more reason to doubt that the Gospels come from the traditional authors than there is to doubt that the works of Philo or Josephus are authentic, except that the Gospels contain supernatural events.
(2) External evidence:
(a) The disciples must have left some writings, engaged as they were in giving lessons to and counseling believers who were geographically distant; and what could these writings be if not the Gospels and epistles themselves? Eventually the apostles would have needed to publish accurate narratives of Jesus' history, so that any spurious attempts would be discredited and the genuine Gospels preserved.
(b) There were many eyewitnesses who were still alive when the books were written who could testify whether they came from their purported authors or not.
(c) The extra-biblical testimony unanimously attributes the Gospels to their traditional authors: the Epistle of Barnabas, the Epistle of Clement, the Shepherd of Hermes, Theophilus, Hippolytus, Origen, Puadratus, Irenaeus, Melito, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Dionysius, Tertullian, Cyprian, Tatian, Caius, Athanasius, Cyril, up to Eusebius in A.D. 315, even Christianity's opponents conceded this: Celsus, Porphyry, Emperor Julian.
(d) With a single exception, no apocryphal gospel is ever quoted by any known author during the first three hundred years after Christ. In fact there is no evidence that any inauthentic gospel whatever existed in the first century, in which all four Gospels and Acts were written.
(B) Proof that the Gospels we have today are the same Gospels originally written:
(1) Because of the need for instruction and personal devotion, these writings must have been copied many times, which increases the chances of preserving the original text.
(2) In fact, no other ancient work is available in so many copies and languages, and yet all these various versions agree in content.
(3) The text has also remained unmarred by heretical additions. The abundance of manuscripts over a wide geographical distribution demonstrates that the text has been transmitted with only trifling discrepancies. The differences that do exist are quite minor and are the result of unintentional mistakes.
(4) The quotations of the New Testament books in the early Church Fathers all coincide.
(5) The Gospels could not have been corrupted without a great outcry on the part of all orthodox Christians.
(6) No one could have corrupted all the manuscripts.
(7) There is no precise time when the falsification could have occurred, since, as we have seen, the New Testament books are cited by the Church Fathers in regular and close succession. The text could not have been falsified before all external testimony, since then the apostles were still alive and could repudiate such tampering.
(8) The text of the New Testament is every bit as good as the text of the classical works of antiquity. To repudiate the textual parity of the Gospels would be to reverse all the rules of criticism and to reject all the works of antiquity, since the text of those works is less certain than that of the Gospels.
Richard Purtill summarizes the textual case:
"Many events which are regarded as firmly established historically have (1) far less documentary evidence than many biblical events; (2) and the documents on which historians rely for much secular history are written much longer after the event than many records of biblical events; (3) furthermore, we have many more copies of biblical narratives than of secular histories; and (4) the surviving copies are much earlier than those on which our evidence for secular history is based. If the biblical narratives did not contain accounts of miraculous events, biblical history would probably be regarded as much more firmly established than most of the history of, say, classical Greece and Rome." (Thinking About Religion, p. 84-85)
Conclusions: More Objections Answered
No alternative to a real resurrection has yet explained: the existence of the Gospels, the origin of the Christian faith, the failure of Christ's enemies to produce his corpse, the empty tomb, the rolled-away stone, or the accounts of the post-resurrection appearances. Swoon, conspiracy, hallucination and myth have been shown to be the only alternatives to a real resurrection, and each has been refuted.
What reasons could be given at this point for anyone who still would refuse to believe? At this point, general rather than specific objections are usually given. For instance:
Objection 1 : History is not an exact science. It does not yield absolute certainty like mathematics.
Reply : This is true, but why would you note that fact now and not when you speak of Caesar or Luther or George Washington? History is not exact, but it is sufficient. No one doubts that Caesar crossed the Rubicon; why do many doubt that Jesus rose from the dead? The evidence for the latter is much better than for the former.
Objection 2 : You can't trust documents. Paper proves nothing. Anything can be forged.
Reply : This is simply ignorance. Not trusting documents is like not trusting telescopes. Paper evidence suffices for most of what we believe; why should it suddenly become suspect here?
Objection 3 : Because the resurrection is miraculous. It's the content of the idea rather than the documentary evidence for it that makes it incredible.
Reply : Now we finally have a straightforward objection -- not to the documentary evidence but to miracles. This is a philosophical question, not a scientific, historical or textual question. (See chapter five in this book for an answer).
Objection 4 : It's not only miracles in general but this miracle in particular that is objectionable. The resurrection of a corpse is crass, crude, vulgar, literalistic and materialistic. Religion should be more spiritual, inward, ethical.
Reply : If religion is what we invent, we can make it whatever we like. If it is what God invented, then we have to take it as we find it, just as we have to take the universe as we find it, rather than as we'd like it to be. Death is crass, crude, vulgar, literal and material. The resurrection meets death where it is and conquers it, rather than merely spouting some harmless, vaporous abstractions about spirituality. The resurrection is as vulgar as the God who did it. He also made mud and bugs and toenails.
Objection 5 : But a literalistic interpretation of the resurrection ignores the profound dimensions of meaning found in the symbolic, spiritual and mythic realms that have been deeply explored by other religions. Why are Christians so narrow and exclusive? Why can't they see the profound symbolism in the idea of resurrection?
Reply : They can. It's not either-or. Christianity does not invalidate the myths, it validates them, by incarnating them. It is "myth become fact," to use the title of a germane essay by C.S. Lewis (in God in the Dock). Why prefer a one-layer cake to a two-layer cake? Why refuse either the literal-historical or the mythic-symbolic aspects of the resurrection? The Fundamentalist refuses the mythic-symbolic aspects because he has seen what the Modernist has done with it: used it to exclude the literal-historical aspects. Why have the Modernists done that? What terrible fate awaits them if they follow the multifarious and weighty evidence and argument that naturally emerges from the data, as we have summarized it here in this chapter?
The answer is not obscure: traditional Christianity awaits them, complete with adoration of Christ as God, obedience to Christ as Lord, dependence on Christ as Savior, humble confession of sin and a serious effort to live Christ's life of self-sacrifice, detachment from the world, righteousness, holiness and purity of thought, word and deed. The historical evidence is massive enough to convince the open-minded inquirer. By analogy with any other historical event, the resurrection has eminently credible evidence behind it. To disbelieve it, you must deliberately make an exception to the rules you use everywhere else in history. Now why would someone want to do that?
Ask yourself that question if you dare, and take an honest look into your heart before you answer.

http://hometown.aol.com/philvaz/articles/num9.htm

Monday, March 12, 2007

Project "Not a Steve"

I'm going through the entire list of Project Steves to see if they qualify as Scientists. I'm up through D thus far. So far, we've got:


Steven Reid Adams******
Assistant Professor, Department of Biology, University of Central Arkansas
Ph.D., Zoology, Southern Illinois University

Stephen J. Anderson*****
Principal Commercial Officer, U.S. Consulate, Nagoya, Japan
Ph.D., Political Science, Massachusetts Institute of Technology


Steven C. Anderson******
Emeritus Professor of Biology, University of the Pacific
Ph.D., Biology, Stanford University



Steve J. Aplin*****
Calorimeter Coordinator, HERA experiment H1, Deutsches Elektronen-Synchrotron
Ph.D., Particle Physics, University of Portsmouth


Stephen Charles Bain*
Reader in Diabetic Medicine and Honorary Consultant Physician, University of Birmingham & Birmingham Heartlands Hospital
M.D., University of Birmingham
Member of the Human Genetics Commission

Stephen John Barnett*
Research Scientist, South Australian Research and Development Institute
Ph.D., Microbial Ecology, University of Adelaide

Stephen M. Becker****
Postdoctoral Fellow, Virginia Commonwealth University; Visiting Assistant Professor, Mary Washington University
Ph.D., Immunology, Virginia Commonwealth University

Steffen Birk***
Resident, Department of Neurology, Bispebjerg Hospital, University of Copenhagen
Ph.D., Medicine (Neuroscience), University of Copenhagen

Steven J. Bissell****
Adjunct Faculty, Environmental Policy and Management, University of Denver
Adjunct Faculty, Department of Natural Resources, Recreation, and Tourism, Colorado State University, Ft. Collins
Ph.D., Public Administration, University of Colorado, Denver

Stepan Boitsov******
Analytical Chemist, Quality of the Marine Environment group, Institute of Marine Research (Bergen, Norway)
Ph.D., Chemistry, University of Bergen


Steve T. Bright****
Vice President of Quantitative Research, Hyde Park Global Investments
Ph.D., Physics, University of Chicago

Stephen Brown
Postdoctoral Fellow, Cambridge University
Ph.D., Plant Molecular Biology, University of Nottingham

Stephen Brown*
Postdoctoral Scientist, House Ear Institute
Ph.D., Cell, Molecular, and Developmental Biology, University of California, Los Angeles

Steven W. Brown
Associate Professor of Psychology, Rockhurst University
Ph.D., Animal Learning and Behavior, University of Oklahoma


Steven K. Campbell*
Hydrogeologist, Groundwater Management Associates, Inc.
Ph.D., Geology, Florida State University



Steven M. Chambers*****
Senior Scientist, Division of Ecological Services, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
Ph.D., Zoology, University of Florida

Steven Gerard Clarke
Professor of Chemistry and Biochemistry, Director of UCLA Molecular Biology Institute, University of California, Los Angeles
Ph.D., Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Harvard University

Steven L. Collins*****
President and Founder, Cirrus Manufacturing
Ph.D., Geology, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill


Steven Davis*****
Assistant Professor, Department of Nutritional Sciences, University of Connecticut
Ph.D., Nutritional Science, University of Florida

Stephen J. DeCanio
Professor of Economics, University of California, Santa Barbara
Ph.D., Economics, Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Recipient of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's Stratospheric Ozone Protection Award

Stephen B. Deitz*
Senior Scientist, GenPhar, Inc.
Ph.D., Molecular Biology, University of Colorado Health Sciences Center

Steven M. Demorest***
Donald E. Petersen Endowed Fellow, School of Music, University of Washington
Ph.D., Curriculum and Instruction, University of Wisconsin, Madison

Stephen Dibley*****
Research Associate, School of Environmental and Life Sciences, University of Newcastle
Ph.D., Plant Molecular Biology, University of Newcastle

Stephen G. DiMagno**
Associate Professor of Chemistry, University of Nebraska
Ph.D., Organic Chemistry, University of California, Berkeley

Stephen F. Donovan****
Ph.D., Organic Chemistry, University of California, Santa Cruz
Member, American Chemical Society

Stephen M. Downes*
Associate Professor of Philosophy, University of Utah
Ph.D., Philosophy, Virginia Tech

None of the above are Steves who are Scientists. Thus far, we've got 26 Scientists on the list who are not Scientists. I will be continuing my investigation later this week, and we will get through all of the "Project Steve" Scientists, A through Z.

Saturday, March 10, 2007

My very own Project Steve!

You know all about it, right? Project Steve, the greatest most hilarious joke of an idea to hit the Evolutionist sites? Well, we want everyone to participate in this one. Because, I've noted that its not only a joke, its a farce! I have submitted a Steve that passed for inspection of their oh so wonderful controls (why a site that takes anybody who e-mails them can be taken so seriously is beyond me here). Now you too can add a Steve. All you have to do is go to here: http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/3541_project_steve_2_16_2003.asp click on Want to become an NCSE Steve? and you also may become a Project Steve. E-mail me if you get submitted to Project Steve, and you get added onto my list of Project Steves! So whats the whole purpose in all of this? Well, I used to be an Auditor. And quite frankly, an Auditor knows better than to take the word of just anybody who mails them in. We actually send letters OUT to people to confirm they are who they are, through their mailing address, and then confirm their identity by them actually e-mailing us back. If these guys had the proper controls about them, they would be trying to send out letters to Universities for guys by the name of Steve. Of course, Evolutionists apparently don't believe in Common Sense! Or maybe they are truely as dumb as an ape. Whatever the case, we may note that they're not the brightest bunch on the block! And as a result......I'll have my e-mail up confirming that this farce really did take place. Don't believe me? E-mail them yourself, then e-mail me with the information you find out at loveforwisdomjc@yahoo.com. Now you too may become a Dr. Steve, regardless of whether you have a doctorate or not! Have a great night fellas!

Casey Powell

Wednesday, March 07, 2007

The correct Monotheistic Religion

Alright, we've got so many religions out there, so how do we determine which one's correct out of all of them? We demonstrate it through a basic principle, for those not familiar with it yet, the 2nd principle of Logic. This principle states that one can not say of something that it is and is not at the same time in the same sense, and is used by Christian Apologetic Ministers constantly.

The other principles of Logic that we will be dealing with here are the 1st and the 3rd. The 1st states that A=A, or whatever a thing is, is what that thing is. Also we've got the Principle of Excluded Middle, or a thing must either be a or non-a, not both, nothing in the middle. When we keep this in mind, its clear to see why the Koran and the Talmud do not cut it as the word of God. This will be brought to light with the proceeding.

The problem with the Koran is many. It states, ""If you have any doubt regarding what is revealed to you from your Lord, then ask those who read the previous scripture" (Sura 10:94). " This is a problem. It states that the Koran must be compared to the "previous scriptures" (its also notated that the word Gospel is also used as a comparison within the Koran as well) otherwise known as the Bible. The Koran thoroughly contradicts the Bible! The Koran explicity denies the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Thats also a further problem since we have accounts of Josephus to argue against that as well, and the Muslims have nothing to go by here. Thats enough, but we can go further to demonstrate how the Koran is not a holy book. A second problem is in regards to whether or not Muhammad is a prophet or not. This centers around the Child of Promise within the Old Testament. If Isaac is the Child of Promise (which he is, as can be demonstrated per Genesis 16, where Abraham agrees to take Hagar as his concubine, and she bears Ishmael, who would need to be the child of promise in order for Muhammad to be a prophet. He was not, according to Genesis 17. Further, God promised a child through Sarah, not Hagar (Genesis 17-18), and in due time God fulfilled His promise. "And the Lord visited Sarah as He had said, and the Lord did for Sarah as He had spoken. For Sarah conceived and bore Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him. And Abraham called the name of his son who was born to him-whom Sarah bore to him-isaac." (Genesis 21:1-3) Muhammad therefore is not a prophet! Furthermore, we have in the Suras - (Sura 19:54; compare Sura 37:83-109 with Genesis 22:1-19) that the Koran teaches that Ishmael was the child of promise. This is false. And by the way, since the Muslims had the Koran in 700 A.D., they bear the burden of proof, despite their little just-so story about Gabriel and such. The Koran also confuses the mother of Jesus Mary with Myriam, the sister of Moses! This gets into a whole slew of Historical problems.We are left with the Christians and the Jews. This one's a bit tougher to analyze. Some will say that the Jews were first, and that therefore the Christians bear the burden of proof, but this could hardly be correct. All throughout the Bible, it is stated that the Bible is first for the Jews, then for the Gentiles. The Messianic Jews in which the Bible talks about here are still in existence today. We have no discrepancy between this issue, because the Jews are included within the Bible. The only recourse that the Jews have to take is to argue that Jesus was not the Messiah. This presents a problem to them due to the fact that the Tanakh used by the Jews is exactly identical to the prophecies mentioned in the Old Testament. Its further complicated by the fact that the Talmud mentions Jesus, and that Jesus performed miracles and such, but that Jesus was basically a sorcerer (mind you written 500 years after the New Testament). The Talmud is filled with all different kinds of Mystical and Magical events that are unsupported by any real evidence. Thus, the Orthodox Jews attempt was to primarily ignore 2000 years of history, and try to stay "traditional" instead of following the purpose for what the Old Testament's true intent actually was in the first place. But again, God did not command us to follow Religion. Nowhere is it mentioned within the Old Testament that we are to follow the traditions of mankind, and as a matter of fact, it states that we are NOT to do so here. Also, the Orthodox Jews by definition are unsaved, because of the fact that (and I've been to a Messianic Jewish church a few times, so thats how I actually know this) in Leviticus and Deutoronomy, it says that sin must be forgiven by blood, or by a sacrifice of some sort. The ultimate sacrifice for mankind was Jesus Christ, so the Christians are saved, and the Jews are not. Not to mention, as a side bad, the Christians truly analyze every little thing to see if its correct or not. I can attest that Luke was not lying when he said he thoroughly checked all of the evidence to see if it was true, and came to the conclusion that Jesus Christ was who he proclaimed to be....the one and only true Son of God and our Messiah .

Sunday, March 04, 2007

A Loyal Reader Writes in!

I have just had a reader write in to me, and would like to share the e-mail with you. Here it is, hope you all enjoy this.

Living for the Lord BY Austin Torneten

Casey Ryan Powell , a young 25 year old man from Williamsburg , Virginia, is a Christian that talks to and has debates with evolutionists and atheists over the internet. He does debates four out of seven days a week and one debate can take as longs as two hours. Casey is a very inspirational man that proves that people still try to follow God with all their heart. He has different websites that he wants people to see such as jesusjustforyou.blogspot.com . Casey also has a website that shows you discussions that he has had. The name of that website is www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?p=930611#post930611. He says that his websites are for all people not just Christians but also for people who have an interested in God. He also says that his main objective is to provide proof of God to people. When Casey isn’t having a debate he’s doing what any other guy would do playing basketball, working out , or listening to music ( mainly Christian music) . Right know he’s hoping to get a job as an apologetic minister . I hope he someday becomes one because he’s a very good speaker and very inspirational to young and older Christians.

Austin Torneten

Wonderful news, as this is great that God is using me to reach out to other people.

In Christ Alone,

Casey Powell